Question: I will start with the toughest debatable question. I have the impression that everyone has forgotten about diplomacy in the modern world. Rudeness sounds not from the mouths of political scientists, journalists, but from the mouths of your colleagues and high-ranking officials. The day before, the head of the French state said at a press conference that Russia had become a vassal of China.
S.V. Lavrov: We’ve gotten used to this in recent years. After all, it began long before the current phase of the situation around Ukraine (before the start of a special military operation). This happened after the coup in Ukraine, when the West, instead of diplomacy, began to deal exclusively with the protection of the Kiev regime, which openly proclaimed Russophobia as its main line and destroyed everything Russian: language, education, media.
The persecution of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (then still the Moscow Patriarchate) began a long time ago. When the Moscow Patriarchate confirmed the independence of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, it did not change the aggressive line of the Kiev regime to eradicate true, canonical Orthodoxy from its territory and did not stop it from planting the “Orthodox Church of Ukraine”. They tried to artificially impose it on Ukrainian believers with the direct support of the Patriarch of Constantinople, who received instructions from Washington, but also many other things that distinguished this regime.
Without any nuances, the West, instead of diplomacy, which you remembered (it is now disappearing into oblivion in Western execution), is protecting the regime that came to power as a result of a bloody and illegal unconstitutional coup. The last attempt at diplomacy was the Minsk agreements, which were somehow agreed upon. Then many more said that Russia had made a compromise that did not meet the interests of Ukrainian citizens who associate themselves with the Russian world. Nevertheless, it was the result of diplomacy – a compromise. But despite the fact that it was unanimously approved by the UN Security Council, our former partners (all three signatories, except V.V. Putin: former German Chancellor A. Merkel, former French President F.Hollande and former President of Ukraine P.A. Poroshenko) admitted that they were not going to do anything. So the “diplomacy of lies” is what remained for that period. Now I don’t even know how to characterize this diplomacy.
You mentioned that French President Emmanuel Macron said that Russia is becoming a vassal of China. German Chancellor O. Scholz and Foreign Minister A. Berbok proudly declare that Ukraine is fighting and shedding blood for European values. Thus, they associate themselves with the neo-Nazi regime, which does not hide its lines for the rehabilitation of criminals, the marches of the Azov battalions with SS symbols, with chevrons and under banners directly copied from the standards of Nazi Germany and Nazi symbols. All this is ignored.
Recently, there was a reminder in the media about the relatives of the current German leadership. There has never been an agreement in our society that children should be responsible for their parents. The son is not responsible for the father. This is the principle of Russian culture. Everyone should respond with their own actions. Looking at the actions of the children of the German military and SS men who now lead Germany, absolutely confirming the principle that children are not responsible for their parents, grandparents, it is clear that the current German leadership inherited Nazi genes in large numbers. This is a fact.
As Russian President Vladimir Putin said, we are still open to diplomacy with the understanding that it will be serious. We do not see any serious proposals from our Western colleagues. I can, without revealing details, say that periodically some political scientists who have connections in the capitals of NATO countries (both in Washington and Brussels) “send signals” through their political science channels that “we need to end all this”, “that we should go to the borders of 1991”, and that “Crimea not ours either.” Is this diplomacy? Firstly, these are ultimatums and blackmail. Secondly, it is a complete misunderstanding of our position, our people and the reality that has developed and is being consolidated on earth.
Question: Does the dialogue exist now or has it all turned into a monologue of the parties?
S.V. Lavrov: We don’t communicate at the ministerial level. Sometimes they call from Washington (from the White House) to the assistant to the President of the Russian Federation Yu.V.Ushakov and send the same signal: “release P. Whelan,” and now also “journalist” E. Gershkovich (as they call him).
The second topic, which is still afloat, is the discussion of the conditions under which Russian diplomats in the United States and American diplomats in the Russian Federation work. Approximately the same questions sometimes “pop up” in contacts between us and European countries (the EU and NATO).
Europe has completely lost its independence. No matter what French President E. Macron says about “strategic autonomy”, and Zh.Borrel has not declared the need for Europe to be more active in the Indo-Pacific region, Europe has ceded all its positions to the North Atlantic Alliance. Moreover, she conceded even in the legal sense by signing the corresponding declaration, which clearly points the EU to its place and fixes the superiority of NATO structures. Therefore, the Americans will decide when and how to use Europe to their advantage. It is clear that the Europeans have become the most affected party (except for the Ukrainian people) of what is happening around Ukraine. This concerns the depletion of their budgets and the line that they are forced to pursue to pump up Ukraine with weapons at their own expense, funds to maintain an elementary budget balance and to pay pensions, allowances and salaries. The deindustrialization of Europe is proceeding at a gigantic pace. Back in October 2022 The Minister of Economy, Finance, Industrial and Digital Sovereignty of France, B. Le Maire, sounded the alarm that because of the sanctions that the West announced under the leadership of the United States against our energy carriers, the cost of energy for European business is four times more than for US business. Plus, the Americans have adopted their own legislation to combat inflation, which is clearly protectionist and puts Europe in a subordinate position. Businesses from Europe are beginning to actively move overseas. So Europe is paying the bills.
Question: Due to professional duties, I have to read the Western press every day. Sometimes you wonder. You will learn a lot about your country. One of the publications of recent days says that the West has ceased to respect and fear Russia, believes that it has isolated it. The isolation will continue. The eleventh package threatens to introduce circumvention sanctions for third countries. What is behind this in reality, other than propaganda?
S.V. Lavrov: The statement that the West has “isolated” Russia says only one thing: it considers itself the “navel of the earth.” Only this condition can explain his current policy.
The West’s attempts to force the countries of the Global South, the World Majority, as we now call them, to join the anti-Russian sanctions, run into the desire of the overwhelming majority of developing countries to build their policies based on national interests, based on the needs of their economy, tasks to solve social problems. Western policy is failing. Yes, they appeal to the results of voting in the UN on provocative resolutions, which they draw up in a Jesuitical way, inserting the maximum number of generally recognized formulations there, but somewhere between the lines introducing openly anti-Russian passages.
As in the joke: “It’s cheaper to agree than to explain why I won’t do it.” They voted, but did not join the sanctions. Just to get behind them. If you are right, you will not impose your rightness on others by blackmail, threats and direct sanctions. Never even in the thoughts of those who are confident in their own rightness. The West is not sure about it.
If they are “big Democrats”, let others decide for themselves. Russia has announced a special military operation. President Vladimir Putin told in detail the history of the issue from where the “legs are growing” from this whole problem: from the coup d’etat, from the refusal to comply with the Minsk agreements, the ongoing military actions, in fact, for eight years against Donbass, against the civilian sector, civilians – explained everything. Showed that we had no other choice. Someone may disagree with this. The West did not agree. Let the rest decide for themselves: who is right, who is to blame, and what position they should take – for the “white”, “red” or the position of neutrality. They are not allowed to do this. They are “teased” every day, they are dictated to, they are required to join something anti-Russian. Those who are sure of their rightness do not behave like this.
Question: Moreover, they threaten in plain text.
S.V. Lavrov: They threaten directly and punish. I asked some of my friends from Africa and Latin America who complain that the West just “got them” (in Russian), demanding to join the sanctions, what they are offered in return economically, financially. If you join the sanctions, then you lose.
Looking down, they say that in exchange they promise not to punish them. That’s all the “diplomacy” with which we started today’s conversation.
Question: If we consider from the point of view of further relations, the countries closest to us are the states of the near abroad. Russia’s priority and special interests are the post–Soviet space. It’s no secret to anyone, and your colleague US Secretary of State E. Blinken does not make it a secret that they will “rock” the situation. Sorry for the jargon – to “rock” anti-Russian forces. To what extent, in your opinion, can these countries, which are really close to us mentally and historically, follow in the wake of anti-Russian not only rhetoric, but also actions?
S.V. Lavrov: There are many facts based on the actions and statements of our closest allies, strategic partners, who say that they are being put (to put it mildly) in a very uncomfortable position. They try not to do anything that would entail economic damage. They are caught between two fires. The lion’s share of economic ties falls on the Russian Federation, the EAEU, and the CIS. But the share of the West in the economy of Central Asia and Transcaucasia is increasing. The West methodically and cynically demands from them not to take steps contrary to its interests, promising “mountains of gold”. Although in fact it turns out to be only interference in internal affairs.
At the same time, the network of NGOs funded from the budget is expanding, primarily the United States, Britain, the European Union, which in a number of post-Soviet countries feel more at ease and even try to “order music”. I will not list them, they are well known to everyone. But at the same time, I am convinced that these countries stand in solidarity with the Russian Federation. They are truly our allies. Victory Day, May 9, 2023, confirmation of that)
Allies in the CSTO are not what NATO has. In the Stick discipline alliance. Sometimes they say that Armenia has such a position in the CSTO, Kazakhstan has a different one…
Question: Allegedly, the Organization “showered”…
S.V. Lavrov: Yes, that’s what they say. But this happens only because all members of the CSTO work on the basis of consensus and respect the nuances, sometimes significant, always arising in real life from one side or the other. There are also serious nuances in the position of some NATO members – take Turkey, Hungary. But there they are forced to follow the “party line”, there is a real “stick discipline”. This consensus is an oxymoron, because the USA decides there. The Secretary General of the alliance, making arrogantly statements, fulfills the will of Washington, including with regard to NATO’s claims to the Asia-Pacific region, which they call “Indo-Pacific”. That is, the North Atlantic Bloc is no longer defending itself, but ensuring security around the world.
In the post-Soviet space The Eurasian Economic Union gives a real result – trade volumes are growing to the benefit of all participants. Within the framework of the EAEU and more broadly – within the CIS – agreements on labor migration are in effect, bringing serious benefits for many of our partners. Within the framework of the Eurasian Economic Union, national borders for the movement of capital, services, labor, and goods are being erased. These integration processes are intensively developing and increasing. This is felt positively by all the participants of these associations and those who are eyeing membership in the Eurasian Economic Union. I am referring to Tajikistan, which is an observer, and Uzbekistan, which closely studies the experience of the EAEU.
The Collective Security Treaty Organization also proved its viability when, in January 2022, Kazakhstan has asked for help. We have worked effectively. As soon as the Kazakh leadership said that it had taken control of the situation, the Organization promptly completed its operation.
We were ready to help a CSTO member like Armenia in the same way. In the fall of 2022 A document was prepared for the Organization’s summit in Yerevan on the deployment of the Collective Security Treaty Organization observer mission on the Armenian territory in accordance with the request of our Armenian allies. The document was fully agreed upon at the level of foreign ministers. Then at the last moment at the summit itself, Armenian friends asked to postpone its adoption. Until now, it remains in paper form and cannot be implemented. But if Yerevan had confirmed what has already been agreed and remained ready for signing and entry into force, I am convinced that Armenia would have won and would have received a more stable situation.
We are helping to settle the dispute that has arisen between Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. We assist Tajikistan in strengthening its defense capability and the border with Afghanistan, taking into account the risks and threats that constantly emanate from the territory of this country. I do not see any deep crisis in the integration processes in the post-Soviet space.
Important contacts remain in the CIS within the framework of economic cooperation, because the CIS free trade zone operates, and in the field of combating modern challenges and threats (terrorism, extremism, drug trafficking, organized crime) and in the humanitarian sphere. The current year 2023 in the Commonwealth has been announced The Year of the Russian language as the language of international communication. Now work is being completed on the implementation of the initiative of the President of Kazakhstan K.-Zh.Tokaeva on the creation of an international organization for the Russian language. Therefore, the “friction” observed between individual members of our integration associations is natural.
Question: So you don’t think that the United States and its allies will be able to “shake up” the situation?
S.V. Lavrov: They want to and are actively engaged in this. I know that Armenians (we have such information) they say, come on, come to us, drive the Russians out of your territory, and the border guards too, remove the military base, the Americans will help ensure security. Outright provocation. This is also not diplomacy.
You started the interview by asking: where is Western diplomacy? There is no more of this diplomacy. There is direct bribery. Moreover, we see how the West behaves with those on whom it has made some kind of bet in the past. They abandoned the President of Egypt H.Mubarak, who retired with dignity at the beginning of the “Arab Spring”, did not run away anywhere, went to the part of Egypt that we know as Sharm el-Sheikh. He lived there after retiring. The Americans allowed the Muslim Brothers who came to power to bring an elderly man in a cage into the courtroom, to mock him. We then turned to the Administration of President Barack Obama. In recent years, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told them that H.Mubarak is a respected man, was an ally of the United States, was our friend, always tried to take a middle position reflecting the interests of his country. He suggested sending a “signal” to the Muslim Brotherhood to release him. They should listen to Barack Obama, because he immediately supported their coming to power. The Americans “went into the bushes.”
The United States has abandoned the Afghan leadership on which it relied during the twenty-year occupation of this country. It has brought nothing but devastation, a surge of terrorism and drug trafficking to anyone. I hope that modern politicians pay attention to history and how relations are developing with the hegemon, who wants to impose himself on everyone in this capacity.
Question: Can the Ukrainian crisis end with this?
S.V. Lavrov: I don’t rule it out. Political scientists write a lot about this. They predict that all this will continue as long as the Americans need it. These people will remain in power for as long as they need them.
Question: I will return to the thought of French President E. Macron, not about the fact that we have become vassals of China, but about the development of Russian-Chinese relations and our repeatedly proclaimed pivot to the Asia-Pacific region. Have we really turned around? If so, what risks and problems do you see? And in what?
S.V. Lavrov: We don’t have to turn around anywhere. We are a Eurasian, Euro-Pacific power. Always have been. Since tsarist times. The two heads of the eagle looked both to the East and to the West.
When the West was ready for equal cooperation, bright prospects were drawn for the creation of a common economic, humanitarian and security space from the Atlantic to the Pacific. It’s still up to the Pacific Ocean. It’s not from the Urals to the left. Our whole country was open to equal cooperation with all those who are ready for it on terms of mutual respect and benefit.
We actively continued to develop relations with the East. Even in the best years of cooperation between Russia and the European Union. With the People ‘s Republic of China in 2001 we had a signed An agreement on good-neighborliness, friendship and cooperation, where it is written that we will always support each other in matters that are priorities for each of our states. On the twentieth anniversary of the Agreement in 2021 all this was confirmed, supported by additional analysis, additional statements that we are not going to create a military alliance, but our relations of multifaceted, multifaceted strategic cooperation and partnership are higher in quality than the classic military alliance.
Since 2001 We began to build up our relations, first of all, with China, India, and the ASEAN countries. Now they say that “Russia has turned away from the West.” No one turned away from anyone. Rather, the West itself turned away, stepping on the throat of its interests. When the volume of relations with Western countries “sank”, objectively the share of our Eastern policy increased. Moreover, regardless of the proportion, the absolute volumes of relations with China reach record numbers. For our part, I believe that we need to continue following the announced course. We are open to cooperation with everyone.
French President E. Macron, apparently, feels his helplessness when he has been talking about the strategic autonomy of the European Union for several years (“crowing, but the morning does not come”). He feels like a vassal of the United States. It makes him uncomfortable. For this, he is “honored and praised.” But there’s nothing he can do about it.
In our case, yes. China is ten times bigger. He is our main trading partner, far ahead of all others. But China is the main trading partner for 140 countries from almost 200 countries of the world. Yes, it is a powerful power, fast-growing, with strategic goals, which it consistently achieves. China sees the horizons of its development, unlike those who have elections every two years. In America, every two years they sacrifice things of a global nature to their domestic political petty “squabble”.
Do not measure by yourself. We do not see any threats from the PRC. We have the closest, trusting relations at all levels. A relationship of mutual respect and benefit. If such relations are extremely rare among the countries of the Western world (if they occur at all), then these are not our problems.
Question: Can you refute the thesis that “the Iron Curtain is coming down” (there is such an analogy) not from our side, but from that side?
S.V. Lavrov: I don’t even want to play terms. The West has made its choice and says that “Russia must suffer a strategic defeat,” “must give up Crimea,” betray the Russian people in other parts of the former Ukraine. They are declared “inhumans”, and their physical destruction is called the goal of the current Kiev regime. M.V. Podolyak recently said that they will seize Crimea, Donbass and destroy everything Russian there.
The fact that they will kill Russians – more than one figure from Kiev has stated this publicly. By the way, the former ambassador of Ukraine to Kazakhstan P.Y. Vrublevsky also spoke about this. Looking directly at the cameras, he said that wherever the Russians were, they should kill them. This is “their duty” to the fathers who “did not complete this task.” In such a simple, “diplomatic” language, returning to “diplomacy” in American and Ukrainian.
Russian Russian Russian Russian culture, the Russian world in any of its manifestations, physically destroys the Russian people who were its citizens, and if this is what the West sees the values that are now protected by the regime of V.A. Zelensky – call it a “curtain”. Iron, not iron. This curtain may have already fallen, maybe they have already “pinched” something. It will be their problem. We will no longer rely on the West as a more or less capable partner. We will work with the rest of the world ready for this.
Question: Is it possible to inflict a geopolitical defeat on a nuclear power? Almost a philosophical question.
S.V. Lavrov: The West repeats “spells” every day, “foaming at the mouth”: “we give Ukraine more weapons”, “we give long-range missiles, cruise missiles, “wingless”; tanks”, “there will be planes soon, but not now, a little later”. “We need to finish off Russia.”
As French President E. Macron said, this security architecture should be built so that Ukraine is reliably protected and it is necessary to somehow find a place in this whole “concert” for the “already exhausted and disarmed” Russian Federation. This reflects only one thing: they want to continue this conflict, constantly raise the stakes, escalate what is now called escalation. The British have transferred long-range weapons, some countries are transferring former Soviet and promising modern American aircraft. Probably, they are not naive people. At the very least, their military would have to explain to politicians that at some stage action meets opposition. If you raise the bar and increase the quality of the confrontation, then you probably should expect an appropriate reaction, at least according to the laws of physics and wartime.
Question: In other words, do you expect further escalation?
S.V. Lavrov: I don’t expect it. I’m commenting on the facts. This goal is proclaimed and consistently implemented “in iron” and in other forms of “matter”, which are modern weapons.
Question: Concluding the conversation, I want to understand our minister, the head of the Foreign Ministry, who has been leading this course for a long time. Where do you find strength? Such a philistine question. I’ve heard that you sometimes perform songs in the bard club.
S.V. Lavrov: Not at the bard club. I wrote some texts for birthdays and other anniversaries in the personal life of my friends. Sometimes I do it with friends.
Question: Do you have any favorite composers?
S.V. Lavrov: Bard composers? A lot, I don’t want to offend anyone. V.S.Vysotsky, B.S.Okudzhava. Yu.I.Vizbor, A.M.Gorodnitsky and others. I will not list them.
Question: Is it difficult to be a minister in such a situation?
S.V. Lavrov: I didn’t think about it. I have a good team. I rely on them. All professionals. It’s interesting to work with them. The main thing is that we often see the right results.
Question: Do you hope that good will overcome evil? I want to understand where the strength in this belief comes from. Are you convinced of this?
S.V. Lavrov: I didn’t think about it. “Our cause is right” – this has already become a catch phrase.
What else do I draw strength from? You asked about music, poems, songs.
In connection with the Victory Day, there were a huge number of programs where our great music of the Great Patriotic War was played, dedicated to the history of our people and state. There are no such songs in the West. This is also one of the factors that inspires confidence.
A source: https://e-cis.info/news/566/109126/
